Merevägi ja rannakaitse

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Illike
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Re: Merevägi ja rannakaitse

Postitus Postitas Illike »

Kapten Trumm kirjutas:Me võime ju Miinisadamast välja sõita näiteks viiekaupa, üks läheb Soome laevateele, teine Suurupi ja Naissaare valet, kolm tükki Kräsuli ja Naissaare vahelt, kohtume Naisssare põhjaotsas, mida GRU kaastööline ette kannab? Ja mõned alused lahkuvad sadamast treileril teadmata suunas :D
alari kirjutas:Ühe (suure) laeva liikumine merel võib tähendada ümber paiknemist, aga kui korraga hakkab liikuma palju paate ja on teada, et need tegutsevad ainult parvena, siis on kindel, et midagi toimub. Nagu siin öeldi, et vene luure on hea ja ilmselt suudetakse silmi peal hoida mitmetel paatidel.
seda see tähendabki, et kui paiknemiskohast n ajavahemiku vahel toimub mingi liikumine, siis on teoksil midagi kahtlast
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Kapten Trumm
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Postitus Postitas Kapten Trumm »

Liikumine toimub niiehkaa. Sõjaohus toimub ilmselt Miinisadamas peale laevade ja aktiivne inimeste liikumine - ehk siis laevade varieerimine siin olukorda ei päästa. Minu silmis on väiksed alused raskemini jälgitavad ja kergemini peidetavad.
/Veelgi hullem on see, et koos kohustusliku patriootliku riigioptimismi kehtestamisega nõrgeneks paratamatult ka meie ohutaju, mis on enesealalhoiuks vältimatult vajalik instinkt/ S. Mikser 2014.
Illike
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Postitus Postitas Illike »

Aga suurem osa pidi ju seisma laos? Järsku hakkab mingi sebimine peale, laost vette ja treileritele ja siis kaovad.
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Kapten Trumm
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Postitus Postitas Kapten Trumm »

Märgatav sebimine algaks seal ka ilma laevadeta.
Üldiselt Eestis varjatud mobilisatsiooni on suht võimatu teha, rohkem või vähem paistab see välja ikkagi.
/Veelgi hullem on see, et koos kohustusliku patriootliku riigioptimismi kehtestamisega nõrgeneks paratamatult ka meie ohutaju, mis on enesealalhoiuks vältimatult vajalik instinkt/ S. Mikser 2014.
blueant
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Sõdimiseks sobivad asjad, mille kaotamist saab endale lubada. Üks, kaks või kolm eksemplari mingit asja võib olla kallis hobi või rahuajal hädavajalik vahend, aga pole sõjariist. Aktiivse vastutegevuse käigus selgub üsna kindlalt, et kusagil on ülehinnatud ennast või alahinnatud vastast. Ja selline õppimine tähendab, et asjad saavad kiirendatud korras otsa. Suures sõjas upuvad ka lennukikandjad.

Vastuargumendina võib ilmselt väita, et sõjalaevu tuleb lugeda koos liitlastega ja sellevõrra võib meil endil neid ka ainult kolm olla. Samuti on mereväe rahuaegsed funktsioonid võrreldamatud maaväega.
Illike
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Postitus Postitas Illike »

Lepiks enne ühe tingimuse kokku. Kas kõnealused tegevused toimuvad rahu ajal või sõja ajal?
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Kapten Trumm
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Postitus Postitas Kapten Trumm »

Selline vahetegemine on kaunis väär. Rahu läheb üle sujuvalt sõjaks.
Sõjas ei kao meil mobiilside ja meil ei teki piisavalt vaba relvastatud inimjõudu, et kontrollida kõiki mereäärsete majade aknaid ja katuseid, et sealt keegi binokliga ei vaata. Meie viies kolonn muutub meie vastasele suurepäraseks luurevõrgustikuks.
/Veelgi hullem on see, et koos kohustusliku patriootliku riigioptimismi kehtestamisega nõrgeneks paratamatult ka meie ohutaju, mis on enesealalhoiuks vältimatult vajalik instinkt/ S. Mikser 2014.
URR
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Kas see pole vastuolus mõttega, et rahu ajal teeb rahuasju PA ja sõja ajal sõjaasju Kaitsevägi?
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. (Harlan Ellison)
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Postitus Postitas Kapten Trumm »

Eestis ei saa olla mingeid rahuaja jõustruktuure.
Kõik taolised, sh PPA piirivalvelaevastik, peavad valmis olema selleks, et homme hommikul algab sõda.
Või vähemalt sedasi, et nädal aja pärast algab.
/Veelgi hullem on see, et koos kohustusliku patriootliku riigioptimismi kehtestamisega nõrgeneks paratamatult ka meie ohutaju, mis on enesealalhoiuks vältimatult vajalik instinkt/ S. Mikser 2014.
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Kapten Trumm kirjutas:Asi on väga lihtne - kui NATO võitab õhuülemvõimu Läänemerel enda kätte...
Õhuülemvõimu saavutamine on järkjärguline ja pikaajaline protsess. Mulle tuttavad õhuväelased rõhutavad seda igal võimalusel. Oma toimiva või tõenäoliselt toimiva õhukaitse piirkonnas saab ka lennata. Lisaks veel muud lendavad ja ohverdatavad (droonid!) või eespool nimetatud mittelendavad vahendid.
Merel kasutatakse planeerimisel väga palju tõenäosust - kui suurde ohtu ma oma vahedid panen ja mida ma selle eest saan. Väga väärtuslikku vahendit ei panda ka väikesesse (vähemtõenäolisesse) ohtu, eriti kui saadav tulu on väike.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. (Harlan Ellison)
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Postitus Postitas London Bridge »

Kapten Trumm kirjutas:Eestis ei saa olla mingeid rahuaja jõustruktuure.
Kõik taolised, sh PPA piirivalvelaevastik, peavad valmis olema selleks, et homme hommikul algab sõda.
Seda on ju mereväelased algusest saati rääkinud, et ei saa olla nii, et PPA paadid "kutsuvad MeV välja" kui teravaks läheb. Vaid kogu merepiirivalvega ja -kohalolekuga peab tegelema üks mõtestatult ja sihipäraselt loodud jõudu kasutav laevastik, soovitatavalt MeV, sest saab osaleda ka rohkemates asjades vähema juriidilise jamata.
My fair lady.
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Re: Merevägi ja rannakaitse

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Kapten Trumm kirjutas:Eestis ei saa olla mingeid rahuaja jõustruktuure.
Kõik taolised, sh PPA piirivalvelaevastik, peavad valmis olema selleks, et homme hommikul algab sõda.
Või vähemalt sedasi, et nädal aja pärast algab.
Oodot, olen laisk ega viitsi sobivat tsitaati välja otsida, aga kuidas sellega siis oli, et mingite tegevuste peale pole vaja Kaitseväge/mereväge kasutada, sest PPA teeb? Aga sõja ajal võtab Kaitsevägi/merevägi nipsust üle ja siis - uhuh! See valem peab töötama mõlemat pidi, muidu ei lähe kokku.

Lisamõtiskluseks:
1. Kui palju praegusest PPA laevastikust homme või nädala pärast algava sõja puhul kasu oleks?
2. Kui palju peab panustama väljaõppesse ja juhtimisse, et oleks kasu?
3. Kui palju peab panustama laevadesse ja relvadesse, et oleks kasu?
4. Kui see kõik on ära panustatud, siis mille poolest erineb PPA merekomponent "päris" mereväest?
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. (Harlan Ellison)
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Kilo Tango
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Re: Merevägi ja rannakaitse

Postitus Postitas Kilo Tango »

URR kirjutas:...
Õhuülemvõimu saavutamine on järkjärguline ja pikaajaline protsess. ...
See kõik sõltub väga paljudest asjadest, aga viimased suuremad sõjad ei ole ükski näidanud, et see Vene õhukaitse võimekuse vastu kuigi pikaajaline protsess oleks olnud.
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Postitus Postitas Kapten Trumm »

Seda on ju mereväelased algusest saati rääkinud, et ei saa olla nii, et PPA paadid "kutsuvad MeV välja" kui teravaks läheb. Vaid kogu merepiirivalvega ja -kohalolekuga peab tegelema üks mõtestatult ja sihipäraselt loodud jõudu kasutav laevastik, soovitatavalt MeV, sest saab osaleda ka rohkemates asjades vähema juriidilise jamata.
Soomes on nad nt organisatsiooniliselt eraldi, kuid patrullivad mõlemad. Sõja ajal allutatakse PV laevastik mereväele. Merevalvekeskust peab üleval merevägi.
Ma ei taha laskuda vaidlusse üks või kaks laevastikku, selge on see, et laevastike ühendamine ei too endiselt MeV õuele neid ressursse, et soovitud võimekusi arendada. Kuna piirivalve saab kasutada EL vahendeid laevadeks ja radariteks, siis selle eelis on see, et asju saab osta nii 20% hinnaga tegelikust.

AGA kui merepiirivalve otsustatakse jätta eraldi, siis ei saa see olla mingi ujuvate märklaevade kogum.
/Veelgi hullem on see, et koos kohustusliku patriootliku riigioptimismi kehtestamisega nõrgeneks paratamatult ka meie ohutaju, mis on enesealalhoiuks vältimatult vajalik instinkt/ S. Mikser 2014.
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Teisel teemal kah. Mida USA merejalaväelane Iraani revolutsioonvalvurite merejõududest arvab. Rõhutused on minu omad.
Title: SERIOUS ABOUT SEA DENIAL? STUDY THE IRANIANS: The Marine Corps should study and improve on strategies of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy.
Authors: DRAKE JR., LIEUTENANT COLONEL THADDEUS
Source: U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings. Mar2020, Vol. 146 Issue 3, p70-73. 4p. 3 Color Photographs.

When General David Berger released his Commandant's Planning Guidance (CPG) in July 2019, it was met with a variety of reactions across the Marine Corps. The most common seemed to be excitement. Throughout the ranks, Marines recognized that the guidance could mean significant changes in nearly all areas of the force -- from manning, training, and equipping to the fundamental employment of Marine forces ashore. Most tellingly, in the conclusion of the document, the Commandant directs (in bold and highlighted) that the service must be able to "facilitate sea denial in support of fleet operation and joint force horizontal escalation."1

Although opinions differ regarding the exact requirements for a Marine force to present a credible sea-denial threat, it is certain to demand significant adjustments to capabilities currently resident in the Corps. The service has begun to dabble in sea-denial capabilities with the coming acquisition of the Naval Strike Missile, but a single missile is insufficient to deny water space to a near-peer, technologically advanced opponent.2 Indeed, advanced navies across the world design their ships to defend against the exact capability the Marine Corps is acquiring.3 Ultimately, the Naval Strike Missile is a start, but if the Corps intends to pursue sea denial as an essential task, it must reimagine force design, equipment, education, and the overall concept of employment. The most effective way to do this will be to model proven sea-denial concepts, tactics, techniques, and procedures. Indeed, the service should identify the most capable sea-denial forces worldwide, study and improve on their existing strategies, and structure its force to employ the most effective elements therein.

THE IRANIAN SEA-DENIAL MODEL

One example of a capable sea-denial force the Marine Corps could use as a baseline is the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps Navy (IRGCN) . 4 IRGCN capabilities are tailor-made for sea denial -- that is the service's primary mission. And while their effectiveness is aided by geography and the fact that the IRGCN generally enjoys a home field advantage, these capabilities nonetheless could be considered a model for a sea-denial force.

The IRGCN could be a useful example for several key reasons. First, it has designed its force with flexibility in mind. It understands that a sea-denial fight against a highly advanced opponent (in this case, the U.S. Navy) requires multiple overlapping and complementary capabilities that expose enemy vulnerabilities. In the parlance of Marine Corps doctrine, the IRGCN is a master of a flexible combined-arms approach: An adversary's actions to counter some threats necessarily exposes them to others.

Second, the IRGCN understands that when fighting a peer or superior opponent (in the U.S. case, a more technologically advanced one), asymmetric methods are likely to be more effective than direct engagement. In a similar vein, the CPG directs the development of "stand-in forces" -- low signature, risk-worthy, tactically disruptive forces.

Third, because of the flexibility and irregular nature of the IRGCN, it is extremely resilient. The decentralized command-and-control model it employs is resistant to disruptions to the overall mission/kill chain -- precisely what the Marine Corps espouses in its doctrine of mission command.

The IRGCN integrates multiple combined-arms capabilities that complement each other, sometimes in unusual or novel ways. Outside the IRGCN, the Iranian military maintains conventional capabilities much like the U.S. joint force. It has a separate and capable ballistic-missile force that combines with a conventional air force and navy to hold Iran's enemies at risk beyond the sea-denial envelope.5 It also maintains special operations/ gray zone capabilities throughout the region in the Quds Force. In the event of open conflict, these forces would sabotage enemy logistics, provide cuing for enemy targets, and hold targets within potential adversary nations at risk (potentially affecting their willingness to enter the conflict).

All these capabilities then combine with IRGCN forces that have the ability to threaten foreign naval assets traveling within the Arabian Gulf. In particular, the IRGCN layers long-, medium-, and short-range antiship cruise missiles (launched from sea, land, and air); fast attack craft/fast inshore attack craft (FACs/FIACs) armed with shorter range cruise missiles, rockets, heavy machine guns, and boarding parties; explosive boats (both manned and unmanned, "waterborne IEDs" and targeted versions); suicide drones; mining (with both basic and advanced mines); and static forces based on islands and gas and oil platforms throughout the areas it intends to deny.6 Separately, none of these assets would overwhelm a capable navy, but combined they create an extremely dangerous environment in the littorals of the Arabian Gulf.

The combined-arms problem the IRGCN creates is not unique; many militaries maintain similar sea-denial capabilities in varying degrees. However, its interlocking capabilities pair with an overall employment model that focuses on asymmetric action, mixing "advanced technology with guerrilla tactics. " 7 The IRGCN has no intention to pursue a large-scale naval battle; instead, it employs its sea-denial capabilities in accordance with "classical irregular warfare principles historically used by revolutionary forces." In practice, this manifests itself as "hit and run style, surprise attacks, or the amassing of large numbers of unsophisticated weapons to overwhelm the enemies' defenses." 8 In many ways, this style of fighting aligns with the emerging design for Marine Corps sea denial described in the broad concept for expeditionary advanced base operations (EABO) and specifically identified in the CPG as one of Commandant's priorities for future force design.9

Finally, the IRGCN prizes resiliency. It has designed its command-and-control structure to survive threats from U.S. precision targeting by using what it terms "mosaic defense." This concept decentralizes command and control, disperses key sites, and favors hidden/hard to detect and target sea-denial capabilities such as coastal defense cruise missile sites and midget submarines. In practice, it decentralizes decision-making authority within the naval command structure and entrusts FACs/FIACs and other IRGCN sea-denial assets to attack enemy or neutral shipping while remaining under radio silence. 10 The IRGCN has operationalized mission tactics in the sea-denial mission.

The Marine Corps' warfighting philosophy lends itself to a similar concept; one could envision Marine units conducting sea-denial operations in the vicinity of high-traffic choke points while maintaining limited visual and electromagnetic signatures. However, while low-level initiative, simple orders, and commander's intent are inherent in the Marine Corps' warfighting philosophy, the service has yet to establish processes, procedures, or a culture that would accept the risk inherent in a doctrine analogous to the Iranian mosaic defense, particularly given the distances that would separate small Marine sea-denial elements in the Pacific, Indian, or Atlantic Oceans.

ELEMENTS TO EMULATE

If the Marine Corps is serious about becoming a sea-denial force, it should emulate the most effective elements of the IRGCN. First, it must acquire effective sea-denial capabilities. The Naval Strike Missile is useful, but it is insufficient. Modern near-peer warships and battle groups are designed to mitigate the threat of antiship cruise missiles (ASCMs). A sea-denial force might deal with this in two ways: either by firing large volleys of missiles to overwhelm enemy missile-defense systems, or by forcing the enemy to deal with multiple threat vectors -- surface craft, undersea threats, hypersonic cruise missiles, slower suicide drones, mines, even "dumb" rockets -- simultaneously.

This means the Marine Corps must move beyond acquisition of an antiship missile that can fire from a HIMARS launcher and develop sea-denial units with a broad mix of capabilities that can be employed in accordance with local conditions. The sea-denial force must have its own mid-to long-range surface vessels (perhaps analogous to the Mk VI or riverine command boats), must be able to emplace various types of mines, and should have access to multiple types of ASCMs with differing ranges and flight profiles. It also will need to be able to provide its own targeting data using surface-search radar, signals intelligence, AIS exploitation, and national technical means, as well as protect itself against long-range fires, gray zone operations, fleet engagement, and other enemy actions.

In addition, the Corps must recognize that there are elements of its sea-denial force that have no analog in other militaries -- particularly the F-35B. Marine sea-denial forces will have to be able to integrate this asset to facilitate the detection, tracking, and subsequent engagement of enemy shipping at ranges not previously explored.

Second, the Marine Corps must be willing to slay some sacred cows. For example, because the sea-denial force may not be built around infantry formations, infantry may no longer be the main effort. The service must be prepared to revamp the existing manpower model, and, as it restructures, to tell the joint force that the Marine Corps no longer executes certain missions.

Third, and perhaps most important, the Marine Corps must recognize the need to decentralize authority to enable distributed sea-denial forces to engage enemy forces based on their understanding of commander's intent -- without centralized guidance or clearance. Although service doctrine espouses this type of mission tactics, the new sea-denial doctrine will require far more decentralization than previously has been acceptable.

If, as the Commandant says, a future mission of the Marine Corps is sea denial to support subsequent fleet operations, the reconfiguration of the force must be aggressive and immediate. Like the Marines of the interwar period, who assumed significant risk to the institution by developing concepts and plans for amphibious assault that were considered impossible, we must now reconfigure our force to support the operations of the greater fleet. To paraphrase former Secretary of Defense James Mattis, we must do more than just listen to other nations' ideas; we must recognize that not all good ideas come from the country with the most aircraft carriers.11

Notes

1. Commandant of the Marine Corps, Commandant's Planning Guidance (Headquarters Marine Corps, 2019), 23.

2. See Sam LaGrone, " Raytheon to Arm Marine Corps with Anti-Ship Missiles in $47M Deal," USI\II News, 8 May 2019, and Wayne P. Hughes and Robert P. Girrier, Fleet Tactics and Naval Operations, 3rd ed. (Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press, 2018), 262-93.

3. Talal Husseini, " Safeguarding the Seas: Top Naval Air Defence Systems," Naval Technology.com, 8 May 2019; " Destroyers," Sinodefence.com.

4. See " Need to Know," U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings 146, no. 2 (February 2020): 10-12, fo r the IRGCN order of battle.

5. Sam Tangredi, Anti-Access Warfare: Countering A2/AD Strategies (Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press, 2013),188.

6. James Martin, " Design Characteristics of Iran's Ballistic and Cruise Missiles," Center fo r Nonproliferation Studies, 2013, https://media.nti.org/pdfs/design%5Fcharacteristics%5F iran%5Fmissiles%5F3.pdf, and Mark Gunzinger with Chris Dougherty, Outside-In: Operating from Range to Defeat Iran's Anti-Access and Area Denial Threats (Center fo r Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, 17 January 2012), 33-47.

7. Gunzinger and Dougherty, Outside-In, x.

8. Office of Naval Intelligence, Iranian Naval Forces: A Tale of Two Navies (Department of the Navy, 2017), 23.

9. U.S. Marine Corps, "Concepts and Programs, Expeditionary Advanced Base Operations," http://www.candp.marines.mil/Concepts/S ... -Concepts/ <http://www.candp.marines.mil/Concepts/S ... -Concepts/> Expeditionary-Advanced-Base-Operations.

10. See LCDR D. M. Layton, " Iran's Hybrid Naval Force: Flexibility Is the Key to Sea Power," unpublished paper, Canadian Forces College, 2015, 4, 6.

11. James Mattis, " Remarks on the National Defense Strategy," Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, 19 January 2018, http://www.defense.gov/ <http://www.defense.gov/> Newsroom/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/1420042/remarks-by-secretary-mattis-on-the-national-defense-strategy/.

PHOTO (COLOR): U.S. MARINE CORPS (DONALD HOLBERT) / MARINES OBSERVE IRGCN CRAFT IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ

PHOTO (COLOR): Iranian sea-denial capabilities are designed for resiliency, with decentralized command and control, dispersal of key sites, and hidden/hard to detect and target capabilities such as coastal defense cruise missile sites and midget submarines.

PHOTO (COLOR): A Marine Corps sea-denial force must have a mid-to long-range surface vessel, perhaps similar to the Navy's riverine command boats.

~~~~~~~~

By LIEUTENANT COLONEL THADDEUS DRAKE JR., U.S. MARINE CORPS

LIEUTENANT COLONEL DRAKE graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy In 2003 and commissioned in the Marine Corps as an infantry officer. He currently is the future operations officer for the 4th Marine Regiment.
Facit: Iraani revolutsioonilivalvurite merekomponent ei ole palju väikeseid paate, vaid oma operatsioonikeskkonda sobiv süsteem, mis toetab "päris" mereväge. Sellest süsteemist ühe elemendi kasutusele võtmine ei anna sama tulemust.
Juhtimise hajutamine ja delegeerimine tekitab mus küll kahtlusi. Nii nad selle Ukraina lennuki alla tulistasidki.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. (Harlan Ellison)
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