Lehitsesin raamatupoes sellist asja:
Bogdan Musial
Sihikul oli Saksamaa
Stalini sõjaplaanid Lääne vastu
Saksa keelest tõlkinud Toomas Huik
390-leheküljeline tavaformaadis ja kõvas köites raamat
Tänapäev 2009
Kas keegi lugupeetud kaasfoorumlastest on selle eest juba raha välja käinud ja oskab öelda, on's raamat oma raha ka väärt?
Sihikul oli Saksamaa
Sihikul oli Saksamaa
Errare humanum est-aga veel inimlikum on selle teise kraesse väänamine...
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Würger 190G
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Tundub, vähemalt oma varasemate ütlemiste poolest, et tõesti on mees, kes ei põe suure Venemaa hirmu.
Especially important in this process was the role of Bogdán Musial, a youthful Polish historian who works at the German Historical Institute in Warsaw. In an article published in the prestigious Munich historical quarterly, Vierteljahreshefte für Zeitgeschichte, he established that some of the exhibit's most gruesome photographs -- allegedly depicting German army killings of Jews -- in reality showed victims of mass killings by the Soviet security police (NKVD).
Just after the German invasion of the USSR in June 1941, Soviet authorities summarily shot many thousands of political prisoners, hastily burying their bodies in shallow graves or dumping them down well shafts. As Musial put it: "Beria's order [by Stalin's secret police chief Lavrenti Beria] was clear: no 'mortal enemy of Communism' should be freed by the Germans. Tens of thousands were liquidated by shots to the back of the neck or by beatings with sledge hammers. In some cases, the murderers threw hand grenades among the hapless victims, who had been herded together into prison courtyards ... The perpetrators literally waded in blood ..." In the town of Lutsk, for example, the Soviets killed about 2,000 people.
"... Before their flight from [the western Ukraine city of] Lviv [Lvov] in late June 1941," wrote Musial, "the Soviets murdered some 3,000 to 4,000 prison inmates, most of them in the Brygidki prison. The victims were Ukrainians, Poles and Jews, as well as Soviet and even captured German soldiers." After the Soviet withdrawal, Lviv residents went to the city's main prison to search for missing relatives. "In the prison cellars," relates Dr. Musial, "they saw layers upon layers of corpses ... In the prison courtyard they found two mass graves."
After Soviet forces fled from Lviv, the people of this ethnically mixed city took bloody revenge on the Jews (who generally had been ardent supporters of the Soviet regime). Many perished in this outburst of murderous rage. "There is, however, no indication that this pogrom was provoked by the Germans," Musial notes.
What happened in the western Ukrainian town of Zloczów (Galicia) was typical of many others in the region. Following the Red Army takeover in late 1939, Soviet authorities arrested hundreds of "enemies of the people" there and deported them to Siberia and Kazakhstan. Then, in late June 1941, in the face of advancing German forces, Soviet security forces hastily rounded up 700 more allegedly anti-Soviet Zloczów inhabitants, and killed them over a five-day period with shots to the back of the neck. After German forces drove out the Red Army on July 1, 1941, they cooperated in digging up the mass graves of the victims.
In some places in this region, Musial notes, the Germans arrived just in time to rescue people who were about to be killed. "Altogether some 13,000 prisoners were liberated by the Germans."
Musial compares the "Wehrmacht crimes" exhibit to the propaganda of the Communist regime in Poland. "The strength of this exhibition," he has said, "lies in the weakness of its critics."
As Musial explains, photographs of unearthed mass graves of Ukrainians and Poles killed by the Soviets were found by Red Army troops on the bodies of German soldiers who had fallen on the eastern front. These included some taken at Zloczów by a junior officer, Richard Worbs, who fell in 1944. Soviet authorities publicized such photographs as evidence of German atrocities. These same photos, with their deceitful misrepresentations, were acquired by the organizers of the German Wehrmacht crimes exhibition for display to hundreds of thousands of credulous viewers.
In one exhibition photo, Musial explains, the corpses shown were actually Ukrainians who had been killed by the Soviet security police in Borislav (in Galicia, western Ukraine). The German soldiers seen in the photograph had helped unearth the bodies for identification. Another exhibition picture allegedly shows victims of a German massacre in Kraljevo (Serbia) in October 1941. In fact, the victims were Ukrainians and Poles killed by the Soviet NKVD in late June 1941 in a Lviv prison courtyard. "The victims were Ukrainians, Poles, Jews, Russians and German prisoners of war," said Dr. Musial.
Among other apparently damning exhibition photos are some that show German soldiers standing among corpses "at a pogrom in Tarnopol." In this case as well, the bodies are actually those of Ukrainian and Polish victims of the Soviet NKVD, which had been unearthed after the area came under German occupation.
"It is known that the regular German army carried out crimes," Musial said in an interview. "It is impossible that among a million soldiers, and above all in the circumstances of that war, there would not have been crimes. But there were also countless decent soldiers."
When Dr. Musial first made public his criticisms, the Wehrmacht exhibition organizers sought to silence him with a lawsuit and to discredit him with a smear campaign.
Especially important in this process was the role of Bogdán Musial, a youthful Polish historian who works at the German Historical Institute in Warsaw. In an article published in the prestigious Munich historical quarterly, Vierteljahreshefte für Zeitgeschichte, he established that some of the exhibit's most gruesome photographs -- allegedly depicting German army killings of Jews -- in reality showed victims of mass killings by the Soviet security police (NKVD).
Just after the German invasion of the USSR in June 1941, Soviet authorities summarily shot many thousands of political prisoners, hastily burying their bodies in shallow graves or dumping them down well shafts. As Musial put it: "Beria's order [by Stalin's secret police chief Lavrenti Beria] was clear: no 'mortal enemy of Communism' should be freed by the Germans. Tens of thousands were liquidated by shots to the back of the neck or by beatings with sledge hammers. In some cases, the murderers threw hand grenades among the hapless victims, who had been herded together into prison courtyards ... The perpetrators literally waded in blood ..." In the town of Lutsk, for example, the Soviets killed about 2,000 people.
"... Before their flight from [the western Ukraine city of] Lviv [Lvov] in late June 1941," wrote Musial, "the Soviets murdered some 3,000 to 4,000 prison inmates, most of them in the Brygidki prison. The victims were Ukrainians, Poles and Jews, as well as Soviet and even captured German soldiers." After the Soviet withdrawal, Lviv residents went to the city's main prison to search for missing relatives. "In the prison cellars," relates Dr. Musial, "they saw layers upon layers of corpses ... In the prison courtyard they found two mass graves."
After Soviet forces fled from Lviv, the people of this ethnically mixed city took bloody revenge on the Jews (who generally had been ardent supporters of the Soviet regime). Many perished in this outburst of murderous rage. "There is, however, no indication that this pogrom was provoked by the Germans," Musial notes.
What happened in the western Ukrainian town of Zloczów (Galicia) was typical of many others in the region. Following the Red Army takeover in late 1939, Soviet authorities arrested hundreds of "enemies of the people" there and deported them to Siberia and Kazakhstan. Then, in late June 1941, in the face of advancing German forces, Soviet security forces hastily rounded up 700 more allegedly anti-Soviet Zloczów inhabitants, and killed them over a five-day period with shots to the back of the neck. After German forces drove out the Red Army on July 1, 1941, they cooperated in digging up the mass graves of the victims.
In some places in this region, Musial notes, the Germans arrived just in time to rescue people who were about to be killed. "Altogether some 13,000 prisoners were liberated by the Germans."
Musial compares the "Wehrmacht crimes" exhibit to the propaganda of the Communist regime in Poland. "The strength of this exhibition," he has said, "lies in the weakness of its critics."
As Musial explains, photographs of unearthed mass graves of Ukrainians and Poles killed by the Soviets were found by Red Army troops on the bodies of German soldiers who had fallen on the eastern front. These included some taken at Zloczów by a junior officer, Richard Worbs, who fell in 1944. Soviet authorities publicized such photographs as evidence of German atrocities. These same photos, with their deceitful misrepresentations, were acquired by the organizers of the German Wehrmacht crimes exhibition for display to hundreds of thousands of credulous viewers.
In one exhibition photo, Musial explains, the corpses shown were actually Ukrainians who had been killed by the Soviet security police in Borislav (in Galicia, western Ukraine). The German soldiers seen in the photograph had helped unearth the bodies for identification. Another exhibition picture allegedly shows victims of a German massacre in Kraljevo (Serbia) in October 1941. In fact, the victims were Ukrainians and Poles killed by the Soviet NKVD in late June 1941 in a Lviv prison courtyard. "The victims were Ukrainians, Poles, Jews, Russians and German prisoners of war," said Dr. Musial.
Among other apparently damning exhibition photos are some that show German soldiers standing among corpses "at a pogrom in Tarnopol." In this case as well, the bodies are actually those of Ukrainian and Polish victims of the Soviet NKVD, which had been unearthed after the area came under German occupation.
"It is known that the regular German army carried out crimes," Musial said in an interview. "It is impossible that among a million soldiers, and above all in the circumstances of that war, there would not have been crimes. But there were also countless decent soldiers."
When Dr. Musial first made public his criticisms, the Wehrmacht exhibition organizers sought to silence him with a lawsuit and to discredit him with a smear campaign.
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Sporrenberg
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Kas enam sihikul, aga lüpsmine käib edasi: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1136383.html
tundub, et Tallinnas keegi Ajaloolist Ajakirja ei loe?
2009 1/2 lk.303-307: Oliver Pageli arvustus saksakeelse variandi kohta (seega ei tasu karta, et tõlkijale langeb põhitähelepanu).
2009 1/2 lk.303-307: Oliver Pageli arvustus saksakeelse variandi kohta (seega ei tasu karta, et tõlkijale langeb põhitähelepanu).
Musiali orignaalartikkel on siin: http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/1999_4.pdfSkandaalsest Wehrmachti näitusest, mida paljastas Musial
Näe, prussakad on ka pragudest välja roninud. Raamatu nimi oli Kampfplatz Deutschland. Stalins Kriegspläne gegen den Westen, mitte oioi kui pahad on Iisrael ja juudid.Sporrenberg kirjutas:Kas enam sihikul, aga lüpsmine käib edasi
andrus kirjutas:Näe, prussakad on ka pragudest välja roninud.
Kas teisiti ei oska või ei suuda?
Närvirahustuseks midagi
link/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYPcQpxUon0
Palun alati pakkuda märke, medaleid, riste, autasusid tsaari, eesti ja saksa ajast. Samuti dokumente, postkaarte ja fotosid igal teemal, vorme, kiivreid, pandlaid, mõõku jms. 52-23353 ri28le@hot.ee
Sporrenberg kirjutas:Kas enam sihikul, aga lüpsmine käib edasi: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1136383.html
andrus kirjutas:Näe, prussakad on ka pragudest välja roninud. Raamatu nimi oli Kampfplatz Deutschland. Stalins Kriegspläne gegen den Westen, mitte oioi kui pahad on Iisrael ja juudid.
Paluks nüüd raamatust rääkida...lühidalt kokku võttes on Musiali seisukoht, et jah, Stalin oleks rünnanud, kuid ilmselt mitte enne 1943, sest ettevalmistused olid umbes paar aastat vajadustest maas. (et ta lootis, et läänerindel lastakse end verest tühjaks ja siis saaks idast kergemini peale tulla.)
rezuni raamatutest ta eriti vaimustatud ei ole.
rezuni raamatutest ta eriti vaimustatud ei ole.
Oh, see ajab lihtsalt naerma, no ei saa teisiti. Pamu kokkuvõte raamatust on muidugi hea, ei tea kas lollusest või suurest tarkusest irooniliselt on ta tabanud asja südant - ah et Punaarmee polnud valmis ja siis 1943 oleks valmis olnud? Naljakoht, missugune sõjavägi ja millal on sõjaks valmis olnud? Ja millal on sõda pidades arvestatud oma sõjaväe valmisolekuga? No muidugi on - esimest korda maailma ajaloos oli sõjaks valmis Liitlaste väegrupeering Euroopasse tungimiseks 1944. aasta suvel Inglismaal. Teine kord olid sõjardid valmis 1991 Iraaki minema. Rohkem näiteid pole. Aga Musialist langes mu arvamus nüüd kohe kolinal. No kuulge, igaüks kes vene või suvalist väge seespoolt näinud, ei saa ju tõsiselt võtta arvamust, et nüüd ühel ajahetkel on see täiesti valmis sõda pidama (OK, USA sõjavägi välja arvatud). Musialiga on selline viga, et mees on küll kõva uurija ja hea ajaloolane, aga oma uurimisobjektist ehk siis sõjaväest ei tea ta mitte midagi (üldse ei imestaks, kui ta pole isegi ajateenija-reamehena sõjaväge näinud).Pamu kirjutas:lühidalt kokku võttes on Musiali seisukoht, et jah, Stalin oleks rünnanud, kuid ilmselt mitte enne 1943, sest ettevalmistused olid umbes paar aastat vajadustest maas.
Oman vastavaid kohustusi ja piiramatuid õigusi antud ülesannete täitmisel.
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